2025.01.16
Metroidvania Round Table: The developers of Record of Lodoss War -Deedlit in Wonder Labyrinth-, Koji Igarashi, and Shutaro Iida discuss the appeals of the genre
by Yoichi Furuya (Editor), NiSHi (Writer)
Team Ladybug (Upper Left)
An indie developer and creator of multiple 2D side-scrolling action games. Notable works include Touhou Luna Nights, Fate/Stay Night Heaven's Feel: RUN! RUN! LANCER!, Shin Megami Tensei: Synchronicity Prologue, and KonoSuba: God's Blessing on this Wonderful World! Verdia of the Resurrection, among others.
Daichi Saito (Upper Right)
Representative of Why so serious, inc.. Producer of Record of Lodoss War -Deedlit in Wonder Labyrinth- as well as many other Team Ladybug titles such as Touhou Luna Nights.
Koji Igarashi (Bottom Left)
Co-Founder of ArtPlay and well-known game creator nicknamed "IGA" by fans. Has worked on many popular titles, the most recent being Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night.
Shutaro Iida (Bottom Right)
Director at ArtPlay and game developer who has worked on many popular titles alongside Igarashi, including Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night.
Q: First, please tell us how Record of Lodoss War -Deedlit in Wonder Labyrinth- came to be.
Saito: The Record of Lodoss War series had its 30th anniversary in 2018, and in 2019, the novel Record of Lodoss War: The Crown of the Covenant was released as the first new entry in the series for 12 years. The editor of the novel asked me if I had any interesting project ideas for the occasion, and I told them, "I know a really talented game developer," which kickstarted the discussions for a game.
Afterwards, we showed the prototypes of some pixel art Ladybug had made for the game to Ryo Mizuno, the original creator of the Record of Lodoss War series. He liked what he saw very much, and so it was decided that Ladybug would develop a game for the series.
Q: Why was Ladybug the one you asked to develop the game?
Saito: His previous game was the Touhou Project fan game Touhou Luna Nights, and its high quality and the popularity of the Touhou Project IP attracted a lot of players, especially from the younger generation. I could feel that Ladybug was the center of attention within the indie development community as well, and so when I was asked about a project, I thought this would be a great chance for him and so asked him if he was interested.
Record of Lodoss War is a huge IP and is popular with people of all ages. I thought that if Ladybug could work on a game for it, then more people would be able to appreciate his work and recognize his incredible talent.
Team Ladybug's previous title, Touhou Luna Nights, is a 2D exploration-based action game based on the Touhou Project series. It was released for PC in 2018, and then on the Xbox One and Nintendo Switch.
Q: I see, I can tell you had a high regard for Team Ladybug's abilities. Could you tell us how the game was developed?
Ladybug: When I first accepted the offer, I immediately imagined that RPG elements where you form a party with other characters would be necessary for a game based on the Lodoss of Record War series.
However, the game is set in the time period between previous Record of Lodoss War entries and the new novel, The Crown of the Covenant, which takes place 100 years after the events of the previous stories. The aim of the project was to depict what happened in the 100-year gap between the entries, from the perspective of the character Deedlit. Deedlit is an elf, and thus is virtually immortal, but the other characters have already died of old age. That means that if I wanted to depict what happened in those 100 years, Deedlit's would be the only point of view I could do so from.
And so it became a solo adventure, which naturally lent itself to the Metroidvania genre, and development began.
Saito: We also thought it would be very lonely to have to explore a labyrinth all alone. We believed that a main theme of the Record of Lodoss War series was Deedlit's loneliness, and Mr. Mizuno also agreed that it was a big part of the story and that a solo adventure in a labyrinth would fit perfectly.
Q: Is there anything you paid extra attention to during development?
Ladybug: While imagining an action game with Deedlit as the protagonist, I thought that her ability to fly would be very appealing to players. Before starting development, I rewatched the Record of Lodoss War anime and other media from the series, and there were a lot of scenes where Deedlit was floating in the air. Sometimes she hovered midair, and sometimes she would fly freely in the air.
I wanted to incorporate that characteristic of hers into the game, so I set on making a game where you could fly freely but still be challenging enough to be enjoyable as an action game. As a result, I feel like this unique feature made the game all the more appealing.
Q: Which means it turned out to be an action game perfect for Deedlit.
Ladybug: Moreover, in order to improve immersiveness even more, I paid a lot of attention to movement. Specifically, Deedlit's animations. For example, the game starts when Deedlit wakes up to find herself in a certain place, and she gets up from the ground. I made sure to put as much detail in the animation as possible, down to how each of her muscles would move.
There's another scene where Deedlit enters a nightmare. There, her sword suddenly becomes much heavier, and while she could swing it around with ease up to that point, here she moves much more sluggishly. No matter how hard she tries, she's weaker than before and struggles with the actions she's been doing all this time. I put a lot of effort in the animations to suit each situation, so that players can fully immerse themselves in Deedlit's adventure.
Record of Lodoss War -Deedlit in Wonder Labyrinth- was released on Steam in March 2021 and has received many positive reviews. On December 16, the game will be released for the Nintendo Switch, PlayStation 5, PlayStation 4, Xbox Series X|S, and Xbox One.
Q: Was there anything you struggled with during development?
Ladybug: As a developer, I try to design games around the characters, and more recently, I try to give players a useful ability that would usually only be available near the end in other games right at the start of the game, and then design the rest of the game experience around that.
For example, in my last game Touhou Luna Nights, the player has the ability to stop time from the very beginning of the game. However, I adjusted the rest of the game with this ability in mind so that it was still challenging and players wouldn't become invincible because of the ability.
In this game, Deedlit can use various elements, and when she's the same element as the enemy, she takes no damage at all. And then there's the ability to float freely around the stage that I mentioned earlier. These are very convenient abilities to have, so I made sure to consider how players would use them and how to make the experience enjoyable for them. I put a lot of emphasis on this and put a lot of effort into balancing the game around this.
Q: Why do you give players such convenient abilities from the beginning?
Ladybug: To me, every game needs a system that's unique and characteristic to itself, no matter what kind of game it is. It needs something that shows the creator's particularity, so much that no one else could copy it for themselves, or something that tells you what the game is like just from a glance.
For this game, Deedlit's usage of elements and ability to fly are what makes it unique. They're very convenient to use, but you also can't go without them as long as you're playing as Deedlit, so they're fully incorporated into the whole game. I think that also shows in the unique gameplay.
Q: So these abilities were crucial in recreating the character of Deedlit in the game. How did you balance the game around them, then?
Ladybug: For her flying ability, there are a lot of places in the early game that you can get past very easily as long as you're flying around. However, as the game progresses, enemies start to attack you while flying too, and others aim their attacks at you while you're midair. While flying, Deedlit moves more slowly, so you become more likely to be hit by these attacks.
On the other hand, walking on the ground is faster than flying, so it's easier to avoid enemy attacks on the ground. This means there are both pros and cons to flying and walking, which prevents the game from being too unbalanced. This way, we can let Deedlit fly without ruining the game's balance in difficulty.
Team Ladybug tries to make his games enjoyable while giving players abilities that would normally only be unlocked near the end at the very beginning. In Record of Lodoss War -Deedlit in Wonder Labyrinth-, Deedlit's powerful abilities were taken into consideration while balancing the game.
Q: Your previous title Touhou Luna Nights was also a Metroidvania. Has how you work been influenced by Mr. Igarashi's games?
Ladybug: I've been very heavily influenced by his work! I'm very honored to be able to meet him today. Castlevania: Symphony of the Night had a huge impact on me. I was touched by the incredibly immersive experience of Symphony of the Night. The characters' quirks, how they move, and even all of the backgrounds were so detailed and drawn with so much care. There wasn't a single thing that the team slacked off on. And thanks to that, you really feel like the protagonist Alucard is really alive on the other side of the screen. I loved Symphony of the Night a lot for letting me experience the in-game world so vividly.
Also, and this is a really tiny detail, when Alucard sits down in a chair, he usually crosses his legs and arms and looks a little haughty. But when he's in the chapel, he puts his hands on his lap and sits politely. I was very impressed when I noticed.
Q: So he has a different attitude when he's in the chapel. (laughs)
Ladybug: I know this because I'm a creator too, but drawing two separate animations is really annoying. But they spared no effort and drew animations that clearly reflected the character's personality. I thought it was really amazing.
Iida: I remember the artist complained about it a lot. (laughs)
Igarashi: The artist in charge of the animations was one of the best among all of the developers, a real genius of a creator. They were the type of person who would keep working and working if they were in the right mood, though, so even though they complained, I remember they were very enthusiastic about it.
Ladybug: I didn't know that! Every little thing that the creator drew the characters doing breathed life into the characters, like how Alucard sits politely in the chapel, but usually he sits with his arms crossed in a more relaxed posture. Even just a small animation difference shows so much about the character's personality, even though we're a whole screen apart. The game is telling me that he's usually a cynical person, but he also thinks formalities are important.
Also, in other games, platforms often appear to be just floating in the air, but in Symphony of the Night, the platforms blend in with the background and are placed in a way that feels natural. When platforms are just floating in the air for no reason, there's probably a game design reason behind it so it might be inevitable sometimes. But in Symphony of the Night, the platforms are designed to fit the world of the game and the player wouldn't think they look out of place. I think it's particularities like these that make the game much more immersive.
Iida: We were very particular about not letting platforms float and making them blend into the background.
Igarashi: By the way, the artist in charge of the backgrounds was also a genius.
All: (laugh)
Igarashi: Actually, at the very beginning of the development process of Symphony of the Night, a genius background artist and genius pixel-art artist joined the team. I thought that meant we could make a really good product, so even though there were a lot of limitations throughout development, I made some pretty wild requests.
It's hard to imagine in this day and age, but we used 256 pixels horizontally instead of the 360 allowed by the PlayStation in order to improve processing speeds even by just a tiny bit, and limited the color palette to just 16 colors. I asked a lot of them, but they managed to achieve everything they were tasked with, and the result is what you've just praised the game for.
Ladybug: There were occasionally floating platforms, but those platforms had a visual effect that made them look like they were enchanted by magic, so they felt like they were supposed to float.
Igarashi: We were very particular about that part.
Iida: I didn't really like the floating candlestands, actually. In Symphony of the Night, there are parts of the game that use floating candlestands that don't blend in with the background very well. In games that came out after that, I made sure that all platforms and candlestands were placed naturally against the background.
Ladybug: Unlike games with 3D graphics that can recreate a photorealistic sense of depth, games with 2D graphics need to use pixels to depict depth, so there's a certain level of deception in it. But Symphony of the Night put so much detail in the animations and backgrounds that the world feels real. When I was younger, I was really touched by how immersive it was.
I've been making video games alone from a young age, and since then I'd always wanted to make a game on the level of Symphony of the Night. There's also other things about it that have inspired me, though; can I keep talking about that?
Q: Please, go ahead!
Ladybug: When you try to make pixel art look realistic, it would sometimes lead to longer processing times that make the action controls feel worse than other games. However, Symphony of the Night depicts realism in the form of how characters move and such, and the controls feel appropriately satisfying.
For example, in other games, when your character jumps to another platform, you're not usually allowed to jump while you're already falling. But in Symphony of the Night, you can jump in the small window after you've already started falling.
Iida: Yes, we made it so that you can still jump when you're already falling. It's a request from Mr. Igarashi, but I believe it's been a feature of all games in the series ever since.
Igarashi: Part of it is because I'm bad at the game, but it was implemented to improve game feel and accessibility.
Ladybug: Symphony of the Night has such realistic art from the backgrounds to the character animations, but it still has a very good play feel. I was really impressed at how it managed to achieve both. My games aren't as good at that, but Symphony of the Night taught me that it's important to pay attention to how the game controls too, so that players have an easier time playing.
Q: That's very insightful. In that case, would you say you're following Mr. Igarashi's games as an example and trying to emulate his work in your own?
Ladybug: Exactly. Highly acclaimed games naturally have incredible elements that earned them that praise. I reference a lot of games in my work, and Mr. Igarashi's work is a very important and influential one among them.
Q: From this discussion, it sounds like Mr. Ladybug is like an apprentice Mr. Igarashi has never personally taught. What do you think, Mr. Igarashi?
Igarashi: I'm very honored. Looks like I've derailed someone's life once again. (laughs) In the past, when I worked on Tokimeki Memorial, I heard many stories of the game changing someone's life. Having something I created leave such a strong impression on someone that it changes their life forever is all I could ask for as a creator.
Q: And now a game that's been so heavily inspired by Mr. Igarashi and has had so much care and effort put into it is finally coming to consoles. How do you feel about it?
Ladybug: I'm really happy. My previous game Touhou Luna Nights was released on consoles too, but this time I even get to do a physical release, so I'm really excited.
Q: The Steam version has raving reviews, but is there any user feedback that's left an impression on you?
Ladybug: I sometimes watch videos of people playing the game, and among them I saw a player who was a hardcore fan of the Record of Lodoss War series. I was really happy when they were sincerely moved by my game. I also sometimes receive messages from my fans, and recently I got a message saying that they shed tears playing my game, and I felt very thankful that there are people who were so moved by my work.
Q: That's great to hear. And both Mr. Igarashi and Mr. Iida have played the game too now. How was it?
Igarashi: It's a very polished game.
Iida: I was very impressed when I heard that such a great game was made by such a small team. I'm a fan of Record of Lodoss War, especially the manga by Akihiro Yamada, so my heart skipped a beat when I realized I could fight Flaus and Shooting Star! And when I opened a certain secret room and found the "Soul Cruncher", I couldn't help but grin.
Igarashi: The game also feels great to play. And I could tell that a lot of care was put into the animations. I was moved by how high-quality it was. I was also thankful that there were always save points before bosses. You can retry the fight right away if you lose to the boss, which shows an effort to make the game more accessible to players.
Ladybug: Thank you very much! I'm really glad to hear that.
Q: In recent years, the Metroidvania genre has become very popular, especially within the indie game scene, and this game is a good example of that too. What do you think of this, Mr. Igarashi?
Igarashi: I'm happy that there's more and more people who enjoy the Metroidvania genre and even make new games for it.
By popular, I think you also mean how a lot of games get released. I actually loved how back in the day there were also a lot of games coming out at the same time. It was a lot of fun to go "Hmm, what should I buy this week?" while looking at a wide selection to pick from. Famitsu makes lists of games that come out in a certain week, and I really enjoyed reading those.
I think it's a great thing that there's many games coming out and making the scene livelier and encouraging others in the industry.
Q: What do you think is the reason for the popularity of Metroidvanias?
Igarashi: In the end, I think it's because they're fun. I often talk about game playtime and money, but in the past, most action games only took a couple of hours to beat if you were good at them. But games cost money to buy, so I feel it's important to make games that have playtimes fitting of their price so they can be played for longer and from beginning to end. And maybe Metroidvanias are a relatively easy way to represent that kind of fun.
Q: Mr. Ladybug, did you start making games because you were attracted by Metroidvanias?
Ladybug: Actually, I've almost never been that conscious of the genre of "Metroidvania." Personally, I'm making a 2D action game, or more specifically, a 2D open world action game, where you could go anywhere you want.
To tell the truth, instead of thinking about how "games of this genre should be like this," I think I'm the type of person who would try to add anything to a game if I think it's interesting enough, regardless of genre.
Q: I see. By the way, how do you all define the Metroidvania genre?
Ladybug: Personally, I think it's defined by how you could go anywhere you want. Usually, 2D games are going from point A to point B, and you can't go back the way you came. I think the freedom to go back and forth between all the stages is what makes the Metroidvania genre appealing.
Iida: I talk about this with Mr. Igarashi a lot, but I think "to explore, discover, expand, and grow" is the most fitting features of an Metroidvania. Personally, I think exploring and gradually filling out a map is what most strongly makes me feel like I'm playing a Metroidvania.
Igarashi: The name "Metroidvania" started in the United States, and the first time I learned of it was during the Kickstarter campaign for Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night back in 2015. I was surprised that there was such a word. (laughs) When a staff member asked if we could use the world “Metroidvania” for the campaign, I was worried it would mean using a trademarked name of another company, so at the time I held back and called it an "IGAvania" instead.
Q: That's right, you called it an IGAvania!
Igarashi: Yes, that's how it happened. Then after some time, the Metroidvania name stuck and it became a staple video game genre.
Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night is a gothic horror exploration-based side-scrolling action game released in 2019 on multiple platforms. The orphan Miriam, who was forcibly fused with a crystal by an alchemist, sets out to fight in a castle inhabited by demons summoned by supernatural phenomena in order to save herself and the rest of mankind.
Q: What do you value the most in developing a Metroidvania, Mr. Igarashi and Mr. Iida?
Igarashi: To make sure it's something players would play till the end and beat.
Iida: I talk about this with Mr. Igarashi a lot too, but no matter how good a game is, if the players don't finish playing until the end, can you really say they enjoyed it?
Therefore, we add features such as an RPG-esque level up system to make the game easier to beat. So, if we want to keep the player's motivation up so they play until the end, we feel it's our job to lead them towards the goal. We're always conscious of how to control the player's motivation levels throughout the game.
Q: I see. What about you, Mr. Ladybug?
Ladybug: Personally, and this applies to everything in game development, I prioritize making the game as quickly as possible.
Q: You want to make games as quickly as possible?
Ladybug: That's right. I think staying motivated is important in developing a game. If I can't stay motivated about making the game, then the quality of the game is affected by the drop in motivation.
When I make a game, I start from the beginning of the game and work towards the end in the same order as the player would play it. I'd make Stage 1, then Stage 2, then Stage 3, and so on. At the beginning of the process, everything feels fresh and new, so I can easily work enthusiastically and maintain a higher quality. But as I go through the same steps over and over, it starts to get boring, and I end up wanting to get the project over with as soon as possible.
But I don't want to make any compromises when it comes to game development. And I want my players to feel the same excitement they do when they first start the game throughout the whole experience, all the way until they beat the game.
And so I make an effort to develop the game as quickly as possible while my motivation is high, before it feels more boring than exciting.
Q: I see. But wouldn't that conflict with wanting to pay attention to detail?
Ladybug: It might. But I know myself pretty well. If I don't have a deadline, I'll just keep working and working with no end in sight, and I would never be able to move onto the next project. So I decide on a deadline depending on how long I can stay motivated, and during this period, I do my best without making any compromises. As a result, I make the games more quickly.
Igarashi: I can relate strongly to wanting to make games more quickly. Though I did not want to make compromises either, so when we were developing Symphony of the Night, we made the parts we definitely didn't want to compromise on first.
Ladybug: Yes, exactly! Personally, I don't like when the enemies in the final stages of a game are just palette-swaps of enemies you've seen before, so I make sure to make detailed designs from beginning to end.
Igarashi: We thought the same for Symphony of the Night, so there are next to no palette-swapped enemies.
Iida: We did reuse some music, though.
Igarashi: That's true. (laughs) There were certain things we inevitably had to compromise on, but for things that we weren't going to compromise on in any way as creators, we put in as much effort as needed to make them perfect.
Ladybug: I design my games in a way that, ideally, the game ends just when the player wants to play just a little bit more. When the player finally reaches the ending, I don't want them to look back and think it was all just repeating the same thing a bunch of times. That's why I have to stay motivated and make sure I make everything without compromising.
Q: By the way, are there any recent Metroidvania games that have impressed you?
Ladybug: I spend most of my time making games, so I don't really have the time to play many games by other people. Instead, I like to watch movies in my spare time.
Q: Do you watch movies for inspiration for your games, or is it just a hobby?
Ladybug: I do enjoy watching movies, but I do also watch them with the intent to make use of what I gain from movies in game development.
Q: In that case, are there any movies you watched recently that really inspired you as a game developer?
Ladybug: I'm not sure if I can use anything from it in a game yet, but from my recent watches, Promising Young Woman was a great movie. I can't tell how it'd inspire me during game development until I actually start working, but sometimes an idea based on something I learned from a movie suddenly pops up in my mind.
Q: Is there anything about this game that was inspired by a specific part of a movie?
Ladybug: There's a lot, but one famous example would be The Matrix. I can't say too much without spoiling anything so I won't go into detail, but I referenced the use of color and backgrounds of movies a lot.
It might be even better if I could play games and absorb knowledge from them, but I only have so much time, and I can watch movies while working on a game at the same time, so I can check them out more often.
Q: How about you, Mr. Igarashi and Mr. Iida?
Iida: For me, it'd be Ori and the Will of the Wisps.
Igarashi: That game was amazing.
Iida: It might not have much in terms of character progression, but I felt it's a very well-made game.
Igarashi: The visuals were really good too.
Q: So the visuals were especially appealing?
Iida: It's in the effects and presentation. It's a really hard game, but the game is designed in a way that makes you want to do your best until the end, which was also really impressive. The difficulty was just enough that it was challenging but you wouldn't give up, and you'd keep retrying right away after a loss.
Ori and the Will of the Wisps is an action game by Moon Studios. It was released on the Xbox One and PC in March 2020, on the Nintendo Switch in September the same year, and then on the Xbox Series X|S in November. The journey of the spirit Ori is depicted with gorgeous visuals
Q: I see. Then what do you think will be in the future for the Metroidvania genre?
Ladybug: I don't think we should be restricted by the Metroidvania genre, and instead make games however we want and add things we find interesting to them, regardless of genre. And by doing so, I think new and more interesting games can be created. In my new game, there's different features such as gambling and an archery minigame. I think being able to play a different game within the game is a lot of fun.
Iida: I also think that there's a lot more we can still do.
Igarashi: Compared to the past, now we have a lot of new technologies being developed that can be used to do all sorts of things. So, I think we'll be able to do things that were impossible before, and if new games keep challenging themselves by doing something new, then maybe they'll be able to appeal to people who don't usually play Metroidvanias too.
Q: So even though Metroidvania games are popular worldwide, you think it can still grow, and that there's more that can and should be done?
Igarashi: There's plenty of things that can still be done.
Iida: This probably isn't that recent of a phenomenon, but there's games being released as "roguevanias" too.
Igarashi: I think "Metroidvania" is a pretty vague term, so it might be a good idea to implement things from other genres into Metroidvanias too. I think there's a lot to be explored here.
Q: Finally, please say a word to our readers.
Saito: As the producer, I'm confident in saying that this game is one that will make both fans of the Record of Lodoss War series and Ladybug himself happy. Please look forward to it and everything that comes after it.
Ladybug: Please buy many copies of my game! (laughs)
All: (laugh)
Igarashi: I think the characteristics of 2D side-scrolling exploration-based action games like this one are the ease of entry and a sense of wonder when you find something new.
This game certainly fits the bill, and it's very easy to pick up and play. So, I hope more people will try it out and alongside of it, if you can play Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night as well, we would appreciate it.
Iida: I think the core of the Metroidvania genre is built on something pretty old, but newer elements have been added to it, making a lot of games in the genre popular with players. Personally, I'm very touched that games I played 20 to 30 years ago are still being loved to this day. Also, the fact that I can still play them and continue making new ones has moved me too.
This game is definitely one that will be enjoyable to passionate Metroidvania fans. As a Metroidvania developer myself, it would make me very happy if you would give the game a shot.
Share
